Patricia Karvelas
Federal politicians are back in Canberra for the last sitting fortnight before the October Budget, and there is a packed legislative agenda. A key focus will be on industrial relations with the government set to begin consultations on proposed multi employer bargaining, which would allow unions to strike pay deals for workers across multiple employers within the same industry. The opposition has vowed to oppose the changes and leading the charge on that is the Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, Michaelia Cash. She’s our guest this morning, Senator welcome.
Senator Cash
Good morning and good morning to your listeners.
Patricia Karvelas
Labor doesn’t need your support to pass this legislation, why not negotiate and try and get some of the changes you want instead of just opposing this outright?
Senator Cash
Well with Labor, as you know, Patricia, the devil is always in the detail, and at this point in time, we haven’t got any detail of the legislation. But what I do worry about is the fact that you can already undertake multi employer bargaining under the Fair Work Act. So the only reason you would change the act is to empower the unions to organise massive strikes. So we’ve called on the Albanese Government to clarify what the potential changes are to ensure sector wide industrial action cannot occur. One of the big worries with industrial action and industry wide bargaining is that it adds additional and unnecessary complexity for businesses, you know, when you have industry wide minimums already operating in awards. If this was just about simplicity, you wouldn’t need to take this step. But this is literally about paying their paymasters, the union movement.
Patricia Karvelas
Let me just challenge one element of that, COSBOA, representing small business groups, is very open to it. Obviously, there are caveats, like there always are, but they are open to it and they’ve identified that because they are small businesses without HR departments and all of the stuff that big business does have, this may assist their workplaces. When small business says it, and you say you want to represent small business, in fact that was one of the early comments of Peter Dutton, why wouldn’t you listen to the proposal?
Senator Cash
Because COSBOA, and I suggest you might want to go to their website and actually read the clarifying statement that they put out, they made it very, very clear. This can only ever be an opt-in process. They made it very, very clear that in no way at all, will they ever support the ability to strike. So they actually came out and they clarified the statement that they made. But if you’re saying that industry wide strikes are good for the economy, I cannot agree with you.
Patricia Karvelas
That’s not what I’m saying. You’ll find that if you listen to the tape, that’s not what I said. If the system is opt in, and it has the support of business groups, then why is it a problem?
Senator Cash
The risk of economy wide is a throwback to the 1970s and 1980s, which Australians in this generation in fact, for a couple of generations have never experienced. The test for Mr. Albanese in relation to the summit was simple. He promised he would deliver full employment, real wage increases and productivity gain. With unions today representing less than 10% of the private sector workforce, and yet, as you know, they had over a quarter of the seats at the summit. The one announcement that Labor have said they’ll absolutely deliver on is literally paying their paymasters in full and handing over the economy to them with this ability to undertake economy wide strikes.
Patricia Karvelas
You did mention the clarifying statement that it’d be opt-in. You did say that and it’s right, opt-in. So would you support it if it was opt in?
Senator Cash
Again, I’m not going to support any change to the industrial relations system that seeks to empower the unions to organise massive strikes. Labor needs to explain why the current system is not working. You can already undertake multi employer bargaining. The key difference though, Patricia, is under the current system, you cannot strike. That means the only thing they want is the ability to strike, and I cannot support that, because that would mean shutting down sectors of the economy, and that is not something that I can support.
Patricia Karvelas
What is your strategy, Michaelia Cash, for lifting the wages of highly feminized industries where women are not getting real wage rises, like what would you do?
Senator Cash
Mr Albanese is now in government. The test is for Mr. Albanese.
Patricia Karvelas
No, but you’re opposing the strategy that he’s supporting, so what would you do?
Senator Cash
Patricia, we are opposing industry wide bargaining because it is an outdated approach to industrial relations. It was, as you would well know, abolished effectively by the Keating government in 1991. When you live as part of a global economy, and in particular, one that is coming out of COVID-19, what you don’t do is put the interest of the Australian union movement first. You put the interest of the Australian people first. So adding that additional and unnecessary complexity for businesses, and even you wouldn’t need to agree, you already have industry wide minimums already operating in awards, so why do you need to move to an outdated approach to industrial relations?
Patricia Karvelas
But the question is on what do you do? I understand you’re opposed to this, absolutely. The question is, what do you do to move the wages which haven’t moved of often women in feminized industries, who are disenfranchised? What would your answer be to that?
Senator Cash
Well, let’s be very clear. Last year we brought to the Australian Parliament reforms to the Better Off Overall Test, known as the BOOT. Now, they were brought to the Parliament to make it easier to enter into enterprise agreements, because that ability to enter into those agreements and drive higher wages was a key issue for the government. But guess what, Labor refused to back the former Coalition Government’s, what were at the time, very modest changes to the Better Off Overall Test. If they had, what you would have seen is this matter being resolved a long time ago. We proposed very sensible changes, Patricia, you know, to the extent that it meant that it still applied to each individual employee, but we improved its application. So for example, it did not require assessment of hypothetical or fanciful work scenarios. But what did Labor do? They fought us every step of the way. If they were serious about driving higher wages, if they were serious about stripping away the red tape, and the complexity involved in enterprise bargaining, and in particular, in relation to the Netter Off Overall Test, you do need to ask them. Why suddenly now and why not 18 months ago when we brought those changes?
Patricia Karvelas
That is a relevant point on the BOOT, the Better Off Overall Tests, given you’ve already said that you are open to those changes. The Government obviously is in a difficult position, it would have to split its bill some way to try and get your support on the BOOT, which the Greens don’t support, and then the Greens support on other elements, which its’ support that you don’t support. Is your support for changes to the BOOT an absolute guarantee that you think it just needs to shift? And you will vote for that?
Senator Cash
Well, again, you’ve clearly seen the legislation, which raises questions within itself, because I certainly haven’t.
Patricia Karvelas
No, I wish I’d seen the legislation. I suspect it’s not ready.
Senator Cash
Well the devil is in the detail, and until you see the full package of any legislation, it is inappropriate to comment. We have said the Jobs Summit test was very, very simple. Mr. Albanese promised it would deliver full employment, real wage increases and productivity gains. I assume that that will be the intent of the legislation they bring forward and I look forward to examining it in detail when they eventually release it, and I assume sending it to a committee, because it will need to be examined in detail by a committee.
Patricia Karvelas
Just finally, do you think the Paid Parental Leave scheme should be 26 week scheme?
Senator Cash
Well, the Government, as you know, we made significant changes to paid parental leave within Australia. They were very, very positive changes. And again, it’s always something we’d look at. But I think when you look at what the Government did when we were in office, and in particular, you know, in relation to say childcare, we made very, very good changes. But again, we always await the devil in the detail with Labor. So for example, in relation to their childcare policy as such, they’ve yet to provide detail on their childcare policy. We’ll always wait to see anything before we finalize a decision, because as I’ve said, one of the things that I’ve learned a long time ago with Labor, the devil is always in the detail, and we do need to see the detail of any of their proposed legislation.
Patricia Karvelas
Thank you very much for joining us this morning.
Senator Cash
Great to be with you.
Patricia Karvelas
Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, Michaelia Cash
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