Andrew Clennell
To discuss this and more, Shadow Workplace Relations Minister Michaelia Cash joins me. Thanks for your time.
Senator Cash
Thank you.
Andrew Clennell
We were supposed to have David Pocock on this afternoon. I don’t know if it’s still going to happen, but I doubt it – we will run out of time. He had a high level meeting apparently. I’m wondering if that’s with Anthony Albanese.
Senator Cash
I do wonder, but you know, David Pocock, like all of us that are not in government – other than the Labor Party and the Greens – we have serious concerns with the industrial relations bill. And what we saw today in the Senate hearing was there are some very serious costs that are going to be worn by all businesses.
Andrew Clennell
I will get to that in a second, but I just wanted to ask you about David Pocock and his role in this parliament. Here’s a guy who’s a rugby player, basically a bit of a greeny. He seems more conservative on some of these issues like IR. He is really the key to this parliament at the moment, isn’t he? You’ve been in the Senate a long time, how do you see that unfold?
Senator Cash
And when the numbers fall like they do, I get on incredibly well with David and his office, and I am often there discussing issues with him. In particular with this Bill and the process, David has real concerns with the process, as we all do. And again, what you saw today with the cost impact that we now know is going to be on small business, this is why you don’t rush legislation, and yet the Albanese government, they want to get this through by the end of next one.
Andrew Clennell
Oh, indeed. And look, they’ve put on these two sitting days. And they appear to have given the Greens and David Pocock a pretty big concession for that, haven’t they? The electric cars measure, what do you make of that?
Senator Cash
Well, again, the Government doesn’t have the numbers and they’ve got to do deals and clearly the deals that they’re doing are to get their legislation through.
Andrew Clennell
This is a deal just to get extra sitting days!
Senator Cash
We need to actually go through the Christmas break, come back in February next year, and properly discuss legislation that we now know is going to have a serious cost impact on small businesses and medium businesses around Australia.
Andrew Clennell
All right, but what about this argument that ‘wages need to move, inflation’s moving, they’re not moving fast enough?’ The Government’s claiming that’s the reason for the urgency. What do you say to that?
Senator Cash
Again, we all agree – and you and I have discussed this before – we all want wages in Australia to go up. But when every employer in Australia stands up in unison and says ‘this Bill will not lead to wages going up, but what it will lead to is more strikes and job losses.’ If I was Mr. Albanese, I would actually sit back and listen.
Andrew Clennell
Alright, well, you’ve uncovered in this Committee this morning that the cost of multi employer bargaining is $14,000 for small businesses.
Senator Cash
Per small business.
Andrew Clennell
Now, Murray Watt said earlier to me, “well, there’s always IR costs for business.”
Senator Cash
What a dismissive attitude to every small business in this country. What a dismissive attitude to every business which has over 15 employees and less than 199 – that’s over 60,000 businesses in this country. Labor is saying to you, ‘we do not care that you will wear a cost of either $14,500 or more’ because the Department admitted that the cost could be a lot higher. And if you are someone who has 16 employees, you’re potentially up for $75,000. But that’s Labor, they dismissed the concerns of the job creators in this country.
Andrew Clennell
And you have found some issues with the Government’s estimates on how much consultants will cost?
Senator Cash
So the Government prepares what’s called a regulatory impact statement that runs through what the costs on businesses are. So the costs in the Government’s own statement say $14,500 or $75,7500 per business that is going to bargain. But they then set out how they got to those costs, and in relation to consultant fees the footnote takes you to a website: ‘How much should I charge as a consultant in Australia?’ So what you are now seeing is the Government is Googling and not consulting. Andrew, why wouldn’t you sit down with business and say you’re wearing the costs? How much do you think a consultant’s going to cost? Because I can tell you, $175 an hour is one of the most unrealistic costs I have ever heard of in my life.
Andrew Clennell
Let’s say they delay this till February, you will still oppose the majority of this legislation, won’t you?
Senator Cash
This is bad legislation, but in particular as you know, it’s not just the multi-employer bargaining. They abolished the Australian Building and Construction Commission.
Andrew Clennell
What I’m getting to with that is you’re going to oppose it anyway. So you could have a Senate committee process until February, it wouldn’t make any difference as far as the opposition is concerned, so why delay?
Senator Cash
You still need to work through the legislation and you can potentially put forward amendments. The crossbench need to be able to consider what amendments they may put forward. All of us have concerns in relation to the impact on small business. In the House, we moved an amendment to increase with threshold to 200 or less – outright rejected by the Labor Party. Given each day we delve into this Bill, more and more is being unraveled. Today I’ve had small businesses calling me saying, ‘where do I get the $14,500 from, along with everything else that the government is actually imposing on me?’
Andrew Clennell
A couple of weeks ago, you said that this will close Australia down and Tony Burke laughed at you. Do you maintain that stance?
Senator Cash
That was in the context of what the National Farmers Federation has said. There is the possibility for strike action across Australia, depending on who is actually within a common interest. Now, guess what? The Department cannot tell you what the common interest is. Do you know why? Because it’s left to the Fair Work Commission to decide. So there is a potential that, depending on who you are and where you are in Australia, you could actually have a common interest, but the Department cannot provide any further light in relation to that.
Andrew Clennell
Will the Coalition be supporting the National Anti-Corruption Commission through the parliament?
Senator Cash
Yep. We’ve made it very, very clear. Julian Leeser has been working with the Labor Party, with the Government, that we do support the National Anti-Corruption Commission. We’re working through a number of issues with them. But no, we’ve made it very, very clear, and Peter Dutton has made it clear, that we support the body.
Andrew Clennell
And just finally, we’ve got the people’s forum down in Melbourne tonight. What do you expect to happen in the Victorian election?
Senator Cash
Oh, look, it’s a really good question because I think the momentum is well and truly on. Daniel Andrews is being exposed, but in saying that there’s still a long way to go in politics and the Victorian Liberals do need to pick up a lot of seats. Without a doubt the momentum is on, and I have to say, I think there’ll be a lot of people watching with interest tonight.
Andrew Clennell
No doubt about it, Michaelia Cash. Thanks so much.
Senator Cash
Great to be with you.
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