Senator the Hon Michaelia Cash
Shadow Attorney-General
Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations
Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate
TRANSCRIPT
Youth Jam Radio Perth
28 June 2024
TOPICS: Senator Fatima Payman, Labor caucus, weak Anthony Albanese, vaping
E&OE
Isaac Mulcrone
We’re joined now by Senator Michaelia Cash. She’s a WA Liberal Senator. Senator, good afternoon to you. Thanks for your time.
Senator Cash
It’s great to be with you Isaac. I hope you’re doing well back in WA.
Isaac Mulcrone
Thank you. It’s very wet but we are coping. We are hoping to an extent, let me ask [inaudible] about Senator Payman. The Coalition as I say, has alleged that the Prime Minister, his handling of this has been quite weak. What are your thoughts? And if you agree with that, do you think that she should have been expelled straightaway?
Senator Cash
Well, in the first instance, the whole Senator Payman debacle has yet again exposed how weak Prime Minister Albanese is. Even Graham Richardson, former Labor senator, Labor luminary, powerbroker Graham Richardson, who quite frankly, doesn’t often criticise his own side of politics, has actually said that Mr. Albanese, his response to Senator Payman’s defiance was and I quote, “I thought it was very weak”. He said, “I think Albo has made a mistake on this.” What ultimately happens is clearly a decision for the Australian Labor Party. But your listeners given that we’re all Western Australians, might be interested to know that a) this was the first Labor Prime Minister Anthony Albanese since 1986 to face such a dissent, so when we say he is weak, when Graham Richardson, Labor Party powerbroker, and former Labor senator says “Anthony Albanese is weak”, you really need to stand up and listen. But let me tell you this. There was a former Labor Senator Isaac, who was actually a very, very good Labor Senator from Western Australia. Some of your listeners are probably too young to remember but their parents will, and it was Senator Joe Bullock. And if you recall, in March 2016, former Senator Bullock, Joe, as I said, great guy, announced he was resigning from the Senate after less than two years, but why? Because he had a difference of opinion in relation to a particular policy. And he said the Labor Party’s policy to bind parliamentary members in relation to a vote, he couldn’t do that. So he resigned. So I’m sorry Mr. Albanese. There’s a perfect example of someone who said I can’t follow the caucus rules. I’m resigning, but all this, smack on the wrist.
Isaac Mulcrone
Yeah, yeah. And do you suspect that the Greens will now weaponise this and just keep putting up similar motions to test the Labor MPs and their loyalty to the party line?
Senator Cash
Oh, look, they do that absolutely on a number of issues, including this but the biggest issue that Mr. Albanese just has is, well, there’s a number of issues let’s dissect them. The first thing is, he was exposed as a weak Prime Minister, because as I said, when you have Labor luminary, former Labor Senator and powerbroker, Graham Richardson, who as I said, he doesn’t often criticise his own party, so when he does you go whoa, hold on. What is Graham saying? He says it is the wrong response. Albanese made a mistake. But I’m in Canberra, as you know, for a double sitting week. Let me tell you about the conversations I’ve had – wouldn’t ever name them, would never do that – with other Labor colleagues of mine on the other side, I mean, they have said they are not happy. They themselves have said they would love to cross the floor on certain issues, but they know that they can’t, because they will be expelled. So they are, I understand, some of them are going to write to the Labor national executive, asking for them to impose a more severe penalty on Senator Payman, because caucus is pretty clear. There may not be a written rule, but the caucus is pretty clear. Once the decision is made that’s it, full stop. You either resign like Joe Bullock did or you do not cross. The big contrast is with the Coalition, because as you know, we do allow backbenchers to exercise a conscience vote, because we believe that if you believe so strongly in a particular issue, that you can reserve your right in our party room to cross the floor. And your listeners may not know that – it’s a big difference between the two parties. With Labor, it’s all over red rover.
Isaac Mulcrone
Yes.
Senator Cash
That’s it. You are bound – if you are elected as a Labor senator or a Labor member of the House of Reps, doesn’t matter what your own personal opinion is, how strong your belief is. The convention is you either resign or you’re expelled. So different in the Liberal Party because we do allow our backbench to exercise that view. And if you feel so strongly on a particular matter, you are able to cross the floor.
Isaac Mulcrone
Yeah, and I don’t like that Labor have this rule in place. I’ve always maintained that and before this whole saga even kicked off, I’ve maintained that view. Do you think that it’s time then that Labor, you know have a similar policy to the Liberals and allow their backbenchers to actually exercise their conscience?
Senator Cash
Well again, this is obviously a matter for Labor, but I’ve highlighted the very clear difference – we allow our people if they have such a strong view, to reserve their right in our party room and cross the floor. I will always uphold that and respect that not just as a member of the Coalition. As someone who believes, I actually want my member of parliament if they believe so strongly in an issue, to be able to represent me. You do not get that with Labor. And I think people don’t, and in particular young people don’t understand, when you vote Labor, you’re not voting for the individual member. You are merely voting for the Labor Party platform. So you better hope you like it. Because if you don’t, you’re going to end up in a Joe Bullock type situation where you know, he did as he had to do at the time and resign. But as I said, well Labor now have a problem, because whether it’s the left, who would have loved to have been with Senator Paymen on the other side of the chamber, whether it’s the right who are now saying, hey, we’re basically silenced at the moment in Labor, because the left wing control caucus. We’d also like to stand up on a few issues. But the Prime Minister has a problem. Senator Wong in the Senate has a problem because she – it’s actually a reflection on Senator Wong and her ability to hold her team together. She is the Leader of the Government in the Senate. She herself has conceded that she understood why her Labor colleagues are so upset, but more than that, remember, Senator Wong was – it was for same-sex marriage and she voted for it. However, when it was first voted on, Senator Wong voted against marriage equality to maintain caucus solidarity. So if Senator Wong has to maintain the Labor position even though she doesn’t believe in it, you’ve got to start to ask questions, don’t you?
Isaac Mulcrone
Yeah look I agree, and again, I’ll circle back to my point that I do think Labor should scrap this. Anyway, moving on, and it’s quite typical, actually, that the Greens seeming to appear in our interview quite a bit today. They have made the deal with the government, which in my mind makes the new vape reforms completely irrelevant. Vapes will now be available to all adults in pharmacies without a prescription which is what the Greens have pushed for with the government and they’ve now made an agreement. Does it make these reforms as I think entirely irrelevant?
Senator Cash
Oh, again, Labor doing a dirty deal with the Australian Greens – policy on the run, but worse. It will only be criminals who benefit from Anthony Albanese’s new thought bubble deal with the Greens and guess who’s going to actually be detrimentally impacted? And that is Australian children. Why? Because they will continue to get access to nicotine vaping products through as you know, a rampant black market but it gets worse. It is an unworkable policy and again, Labor don’t care. They just wanted to ram the legislation through so they did the dirty deal with the Australian Greens. But hey, hold on. Pharmacists. They’re the people who now under Labor’s laws have to dispense the vaping products. Pharmacists have stood up and said, is this some type of joke? We don’t want to dispense vaping products. We are not tobacconists. The core role, when a person walks into a pharmacist, whether you’re an older person, whether you’re a younger person, hey, we all know our local pharmacist. And we all know that when we walk into our local pharmacist, their role is to dispense registered medicines and provide important primary care, support and advice to the Australian community. And now, I mean, you know, I mean Isaac, you tell me. They have to have a section, you know, vaping? I mean, you’ve got to be kidding me. It’s really serious. Labor did not consult with the pharmacists. They did the deal with the Australian Greens. The only people benefiting are criminal syndicates, on the black market. Our children, who we should be doing everything possible to ensure that they cannot get access to vaping products all become addicted to vaping. They are the ones that lose out under this Labor Party policy.
Isaac Mulcrone
And the Pharmacy Guild of Australia, as you point out, says these reforms will continue to put young people in harm’s way. They also don’t like the idea, as you also pointed out, of pharmacists having to sell vapes to everyday Australians and give them the warnings and all this rubbish. Will these reforms put increased pressure on pharmacists says they’re alleging?
Senator Cash
Oh, look, let’s not take it from you and I, the pharmacists have made that very, very clear. A) the last thing they want to do is actually be forced to take on the role of a tobacconist but b) they are already, as you know, so busy on a daily basis. You now add basically becoming a seller of vapes, right you know, to people who walk in. – a) Something I don’t want to do and b) all of the red tape associated with that. Let’s just allow them to do what we as a country need them to do – their core role, dispense registered medicines and provide important primary care, support and advice to the Australian community. What Labor should have done is go down the path that we will do, which is very much to put in place the regulated model – stop the dodgy retailers selling vapes to children with impunity through the rampant black market. Stop organised crime continuing to thrive, and then you place the community safety at further risk. You need to pursue a strictly regulated retail model for vaping products under the Therapeutic Goods Administration. So what do you end up with? A licensing scheme. You end up with prevention campaigns and strong enforcement. That is the only way to get this issue under control. But again, what did we see this week? Dirty deal. Australian Greens, crime syndicates celebrating quite frankly. Children. They definitely are now in trouble under this policy. And as for the pharmacists, I think they are just shaking their heads and saying what does Labor hate us so much?
Isaac Mulcrone
Yeah, I think you’re right. And then the whole point of this vape reform was to make vapes illegal so you couldn’t buy them unless you got a prescription.
Senator Cash
And all you’ve done, exactly, you’re saying to the black market. Hey, guess what have we got a product for you? Yeah, And the black market, I mean, the black market unfortunately, they know the ins and outs.
Isaac Mulcrone
Yeah, exactly.
Senator Cash
And that doesn’t help our children because kids will be targeted by a thriving and dangerous black market under this product and we have said very clearly, Peter Dutton has made it clear. We do not want to see children getting access to vaping products, or becoming addicted to vaping. Full stop. That’s it.
Isaac Mulcrone
Yeah. They may as well just keep the tobacconists open to be honest because there’s no point having the pharmacy so I mean, it just sounds like a dodgy scam to me.
Senator Cash
And that’s what’s so sad. When you rush through policy that a) you haven’t properly consulted on because you’re not listening to those who are directly impacted by it, in particular, the pharmacists. I mean, Labor like to say that we’ve spoken to the pharmacists. Well, there’s one thing to speak to someone, there’s another thing to listen to the feedback that they give you. But what is worse, to actually just do a deal. And I mean, it’s quite a technical deal. So it needed to be properly looked at and properly understood. Pharmacists needed to be given the opportunity to say, hey, hold on, do you know what this is going to do to us? And the impact it has a) on us we’re not tobacconists and b) on children, they’ll actually continue to get access to vapes. And c) the only people celebrating are the criminals. But Labor did not do that.
Isaac Mulcrone
Yeah, it’s a real shame because it could have been really good. Michaelia Cash. We do thank you very much indeed for your time.
Senator Cash
It’s always a pleasure to be with you Isaac.
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